Crisis at the Edge of Big History?

  • Wednesday, July 22, 2015 4:02 AM
    Message # 3444285
    Lowell Gustafson (Administrator)

    We are including a link to an op-ed piece in the New York Times written by astrophysicists Adam Frank at the University of Rochester and Marcelo Gleiser at Dartmouth College. This article is of interest because it discusses the limits of empirical knowledge in astrophysics. The authors point out the dilemma of modern physics---that current theories like string theory and multiverses seem beyond empirical investigation and therefore challenge the very foundation of what it means to conduct science. Some scientists are willing to consider theories if they are elegant and explanatory enough, even if they aren’t confirmable empirically. In this piece Frank and Gleiser don’t  explicitly takes sides on this controversy; they just point out the dilemma and how much is riding on what scientists find with the recently upgraded Large Hadron Collider.

    Since astrophysics is a piece of the big history story, it is of interest to hear this discussion of where the limits of empirical knowledge are in that field. 

    This topic is of interest to Big History since Article 2 of the IBHA Articles of Incorporation states that the International Big History Association (IBHA) defines its purpose as “to promote, support and sponsor the diffusion and improvement of the academic and scholarly knowledge of the scientific field of endeavor commonly known as “Big History” by means of teaching and research and to engage in activities related thereto.”

    Is still unconfirmed theoretical physics science?  How should it be incorporated into Big History when in most areas we seek to base the field on evidence that is confirmable empirically?

    So how should we respond to the Crisis at the Edge of Physics?

    Last modified: Monday, October 24, 2016 9:31 AM | Lowell Gustafson (Administrator)
    Moved from IBHA Discussions: Thursday, April 20, 2017 8:04 PM
  • Thursday, July 23, 2015 1:23 PM
    Reply # 3446391 on 3444285
    Anonymous

    I personally find plausible answers to big questions just as valuable as firm answers to small questions. In fact, that is the reason for my interest in Big History, because extrapolating patterns in Big History helps me take good guesses at what lies beyond the edges of knowledge. So I personally would find it highly desirable for Big History to incorporate theoretical physics, as long as these theories are clearly taught as not empirically-based, as educated guesses for what we can't know, as the mystery into which Big History fits.

    I find it quite useful when a field tells its students what the field doesn't know, in addition to what it does know. It provides students with a crisp understanding of the strengths and limits of the field's knowledge, and allows them to put it into context with other ways of knowing.

    Lastly I want to say that Big History itself might offer some scholarly contribution to what lies beyond its edges. Am I right in saying that the plot of the Big History story is this: individual units of order that self-assemble into larger self-perpetuation organizations that themselves become individual units .... (repeating ad infinitum)? I think it may be a nice contribution to apply a Big History perspective to theoretical physics, and note if their theories conform to this plot, or which ones best conform, or how their theories might be tweaked to fit this plot better.

    In short I think adding theoretical physics to Big History would be a win-win-win (for Big History, theoretical physics and students).

     

  • Monday, July 27, 2015 4:26 PM
    Reply # 3452122 on 3444285
    Deleted user

    I would suggest that the crisis is not at the edge of physics but at the foundation of physics. To illustrate:  

    • MATTER: If 95 percent of the known universe is invisible, then an “empirical” big history concerns itself with only with the 5 percent that is visible to the senses. This leaves out the vast majority of the known universe and looks only at the veneer of “matter.” However, there is no single universally agreed scientific meaning of the word “matter.” Upon exploration, matter seems to disappears into fields and strings of energy. There is no hard matter in “matter.” The deeper we explore, the more mysterious matter becomes.

    • DARK MATTER & DARK ENERGY: If we turn to the 95 percent of the known universe that is invisible, the mystery deepens further. "Dark matter" is a hypothetical kind of matter that cannot be seen with telescopes but accounts for most of the matter in the universe. Because it has not been detected directly, it is one of the great mysteries in modern astrophysics. With regard to “dark energy,” we know how much there is because we know it affects the universe’s expansion—other than that, it is a complete mystery.

    • TIME: History presumably unfolds over time—but what is the nature of “time”? The view of “time” as a linear progression from past to present to future is now being fundamentally questioned as possibly illusory. Can big history make sense without linear time? Prominent scientists in physics, such as string theory pioneer Ed Witten and theorist Brian Greene, have recently embraced the idea that linear time is illusory. The nature of time is a profound mystery.

    • LIFE: The growing complexity of physical systems is generally assumed to provide the basis for“life.” Yet, from the perspective of empirical science, the transition from non-life to life has yet to be explained and remains a complete mystery.

    • SELF-ORGANIZING SYSTEMS: A process of “self-assembly” is foundational to thinking in big history but the process whereby some kind of “self” has the knowing or sentient capacity generating self-assembly remains a mystery.

    • CONSCIOUSNESS: Experiments in quantum physics have demonstrated the critical role of observation (and therefore “consciousness” or “sentience") in collapsing the wave nature of quantum reality into a discrete and measurable particle form. Yet, the nature of and basis for consciousness remains a mystery to empirical science.

    • NON-LOCALITY: Big history assumes that smaller pieces (atoms and molecules) somehow self-assemble into larger systems (such as plants and animals) to produce a world of seemingly separate objects. Yet, empirical science has demonstrated non-locality at the quantum level and the underlying unity of the universe. The connection between unification at the micro-scale and seeming separation at the macro-scale has yet to be explained and remains a deep mystery.

    Overall, mystery is compounded by mystery upon mystery. Big history gives the clear impression that it is based on scientific “facts” when the reality is that much of the nature of reality is deeply mysterious. The current, mechanistic paradigm of a universe that is non-living at its foundations is provisional and awaiting deeper insight into the nature of reality.


    Last modified: Monday, July 27, 2015 4:28 PM | Deleted user
  • Tuesday, July 28, 2015 11:59 AM
    Reply # 3454756 on 3444285
    Anonymous

    Duane, is it your contention that Big History and the science and scholarship from which it is assembled are not very worthwhile endeavors because the facts we do think we know with some certainty sit on top of, and among even larger areas of mystery? Do you advocate an alternative path to understanding ourselves and our universe?

    Last modified: Tuesday, July 28, 2015 12:04 PM | Anonymous
  • Wednesday, July 29, 2015 10:47 PM
    Reply # 3457093 on 3444285
    Deleted user

    Karen— I think that the current science and scholarship of big history are extremely important and worthwhile! In no way do I mean to diminish that scholarship. My view is that the paradigm of scientific materialism is provisional as is as the paradigm of living systems (that I apply to my description of big history). We are in a time of great discovery and this calls for openness. As I state in the conclusion of my essay on big history, " It is scientifically valid, critical to our pathway into the future, and enormously enriching to bring a living systems paradigm into big history as a legitimate track of discovery and development.”  This does not deny the importance and role of current science and scholarship but does call for being open to other perspectives that may offer a different sense of cosmic identity, purpose, meaning, consciousness, and ethics as well as a compassionate concern for sustainable ways of living. These are of immeasurable value to humanity as we seek to grow through a time of profound planetary transition and come together to build a promising species-civilization.


  • Friday, September 04, 2015 9:54 AM
    Reply # 3510448 on 3444285

    If we consider that we the humans are the most recent offering of a cosmic narrative that began with the Big Bang, to what extent do we decide that that narrative has come to a conclusion in us or our experience? If we decide that cosmic dynamics (what other kind is there?) still pertain within our experience, in respect of the narrative that gave rise to us in the first place, we may well ask whether or not that narrative requires conscious input from us in terms of its continued progress?

    If we decide that it does, then we must recognize that a narrative that progressed in a completely random way up to the emergence of the human, can progress through and beyond the human in the context of a measure of deliberation that humans can bring to bare on it. What has the cosmos been doing up to now? Producing us!! What will it do from now on? That largely depends on what we, the humans and our like elsewhere in the cosmos, choose to do. In suggesting this, I am toying with the idea that the narrative that gave rise to us is the fundamental narrative of the cosmos.

    In any case, it is worth asking: If we can opt to serve process within the cosmic narrative that gave rise to us, to what extent do we only validly do so by realising our experience as a set of empirical facts? Is that all that is required of us and if not,  what else is there? Cosmic narrative aside, why do we decide that realization as empirical fact is the only validity?

    In general, to what end do we pursue knowledge and is it possible that that pursuit will bring us to the limits of the concept of knowledge and its usefulness as a tool? (What will we be then, but more importantly, what will the phenomenon that is now “we” be then?). It is worth mentioning that one could apply a similar analysis to language.

    Are we now on a journey within knowledge that will in time require of us that we move beyond it? Are we already at that frontier? Maybe the Buddhists have already taken that step.

    Looked at from another viewpoint, if we consider that everything within our experience is a consequence of cosmic process, to what extent do we decide that that process has come to a conclusion in any aspect of that experience?

    We may have a concept of knowledge and the idea of the “fact” upon which it is based, but is there a dynamic within these words? It is interesting to consider that the narrative which is now manifest in the scientific has in the past been a narrative within the experience and understanding of these words that in time would be played out within the scientific itself (and apparently still continues to do so)

    This is a narrative that has left religion, philosophy and mythology behind in its progress to the notion of scientific empiricism.  Is it possible that in time it will leave the scientific (or at least, the scientific as we now know it) behind as well? Has it already done so? Can we consider validly progressing without "knowing"?

    History, and of course by extension ‘Big History’ has largely been a pursuit based in the establishment of fact. This takes a new turn when the concept of history becomes wedded to the sciences. But is it possible that we have reached a point where we must consider modalities other than scientific empiricism by which we might operate with respect to the cosmic narrative that pertains to us?


  • Friday, September 04, 2015 10:04 AM
    Reply # 3510452 on 3444285

    It may not be usual to comment on ones own post. I just wish to clarify something. When I talk of scientific empiricism having left mythology, religion and philosophy behind in the context of a narrative around knowledge and fact I do not intend to dismiss them as no longer of relevance to the discussion. If science has reached frontiers in terms of what it can know, we may need to reappraise them as modalities by which we might progress as humans in the context of the cosmic narrative that gave rise to us.

  • Monday, September 07, 2015 4:57 PM
    Reply # 3514448 on 3444285

    You can draw a pretty strait line from this argument to similar arguments amongst philosophers for millenia.  Sometimes it gets framed as this contest between Rationalists vs. Empiricists. 

    It's interesting to read the arguments, but it seems to me a false dichotomy and a fabricated conflict.

    The synthesis of rationalism and empiricism is powerful in Physics, Science, and Big History.

     

  • Sunday, September 20, 2015 2:43 PM
    Reply # 3534945 on 3444285

    Hi John. I'm not sure what you think I am saying here? I don't think I am arguing the virtues of rationalism over empiricism or vice versa  or anything else for that matter. What I am suggesting is that if we recognise that we are an essential consequence of the cosmic narrative that we undertake to engage through big history then we must ask whether or not the narrative will progress through us and if so, how we might undertake to participate in that progress. In this context, we might question the virtues of any tool that we might use to facilitate our possible progress as essential cosmic phenomena, be it science, philosophy or religion or anything else? This thread began with a discussion of an article which seems to suggest that there is a limit to which we might come to fully "know" the cosmic reality of which we are part. What I am advocating here is the idea that while the concept of knowledge (or anything else for that matter) is a valuable one right now, if we are to progress as phenomena in the context of the cosmic dynamic which has given rise to us, we may reach a point where knowledge will cease to have the importance that it has now. I find the eastern religions interesting in this regard in that they have concepts of wisdom and understanding (and general human progress) that are not necessarily tied to an idea of knowledge. In this regard, human progress could be read as cosmic progress.

    You suggest that "the synthesis of rationalism and empiricism is powerful in Physics, Science and Big History". I'm not sure exactly on what grounds you make this claim. The article upon which this thread is based would certainly seem to suggest that empiricism seems to be an increasingly limited tool by which we might relate to the cosmos as a whole. If so, the question arises as to how we might validly operate beyond this limitation? 


  • Friday, October 09, 2015 10:58 AM
    Reply # 3569127 on 3444285

    Hi Jack.  Great to meet you.  No, my post was not in response to your post.  Rather, it was my take on the op-Ed piece.  It seemed to me that the authors have taken up the position that in astrophysics, a rationalist approach may lead to some ultimate truth that an empirical approach cannot achieve. 

    What I'm trying to say is that I think rationalism and empiricism complement rather than compete with one other.  I don't think these are separate things with one superior to the other.  I think rationalism and empiricism are part of the same thing; namely, an attempt to understand what we can about the world.